Head of the Balkans division at Israel’s foreign ministry explains the conflict of Israel with Palestinians

English

Gazeta Express

14/05/2021 9:23

The head of the Balkans division at Israel’s foreign ministry and Israeli Ambassador to North Macedonia, Dan Oryan, in an exclusive interview with T7, speaks about recent conflict of Israel with the Palestinians.

Oryan during the interview speaks about religious freedom in Israel, the Temple Mount (Al-Aqsa mosque), shooting of Gaza towards Jerusalem, agreement prospects between parties, Palestinian population in Israel etc.

Below is the interview in full:

T7 (Berat Buzhala): Mr. Ambassador Thank you for being with us tonight!

Dan Oryan: It is a pleasure to be with you tonight. First, I would be happy to congratulate my Muslim friends Eid-ul-Fitr Mubarak, and I hope it will pas quietly. Our celebration here is going to be less happy after 1,500 rockets launched from Gaza towards Israel.

T7: Can you make a quick introduction. How is possible that the situation escalated very quickly in Jerusalem and in Gaza? What happened there, because from the distance here we can hear many things, many speculations?

Dan Oryan: I think there are few elements.To start with the basics, the Palestinians, our neighbors, are not accepting us, are not ready to live with us in peace. Ther is always an excuse, always a reason, but at the end of the day, there is no real interest from the Palestinian side from 1947 until today, to sit with us and talk, and get to peaceful agreement. We had some talks in the past, but nothing resulted, always because of the negative attitude of the Palestinians. What happened this time it was that a certain tension in Jerusalem, on Temple Mount. To be honest, there is also a neighborhood not far from there, Sheikh Jarrah, where there is a an ongoing procedure about some buildings and the ownership of these buildings. As you know, Israel is giving full religious freedom, it means tht tens of thousands of Palestinians and other Muslims are coming up to the mountains, are praying, nobody stops them, they have full freedom, but from time to time, youngsters are gathering stones and throwing them. No country in the world would let that happen, and certainly in those cases, and of course, in these cases we have to react. Some of the pictures that you see, you can see people from the police going into the religious places and other places. Wherever there is danger for people we must interfere, and this is our obligation. This is what started this round [of tensions], but for a long time the Palestinians were looking for a reason, for excuses, and of course shooting from Gaza is because of Jerusalem. They shot before, they shot after, and they are shooting because they do not want us to live in peace and quiet with our neighbors. In the last few years, we have agreements signed with Arab countries that Palestinians did not want them happen, and actually have threatened countries not to do that. So if one looks at the big picture, the big picture is that there is no interest from the Palestinian side to get to an agreement, and they will use anything. And first and foremost it is the Hamas organization which has in its declaration, in its basic constitution the call for killing Jews. This has nothing to do with the Temple Mount, or anything else this is specifically what it says there. Killing Jews is one of the goals of this organization and unfortunately, they took hostage the people of Gaza. 

T7: Yes, but Mr. Ambassador, videos and photos of the Israeli security forces storing Al-Aqsa Mosque. Was it necessary for the Israeli forces to storm the mosque? Was it disproportionally use of force and entering the third  most important mosque of the Islam world?

Dan Oryan: First of all, I would like they not to do that, but they are left no choice, when you have 70,000 people on the Mountain, and when they start coming out, they start “bombardment” with stones. I suppose you have seen some of the pictures. It is unbelievable. They have been prepared beforehand, the pile of stones were everywhere, ready to be thrown. It is putting others lives in danger. When you have endangering lives of Jews, Christians and Muslims, you have to act, and this is what we did. Again, the Jerusalem issue, is just an excuse for the Palestinians not to continue the pace and harmony tht we have with so many places. Now they try to ignite other places as well. In this respect, we did what we could, but certainly there is no interest. We did not stay there, the police enters and goes out, there is a status-quo. Israel is making possible not just to pray, but for each and everyone to do what he feels like within the boundaries of this status-quo.

T7: Can you tell our public how many Palestinians live in your country, excluding West Bank or Gaza?

Dan Oryan: In Israel we have about 9 million people altogether, of them almost two million are what we call Israeli Arabs. Some of them declare their selves as Palestinians, some less. So everything depends on their declaration, but we are talking about almost 20 percent of the population of Israel, and these are people that can go to the Israeli Parliament. They have all the rights. Now that the vaccination happened, they all got vaccines. So, one should have this in mind, they are not someone who we do not care about. On contrary, we care a lot. I do my shopping in Abu Gosh, it is a small village next to Jerusalem. They are all Arabs, Muslim Arabs. I was there with your Head of Mission, Mrs. Ines Demiri. Just few days ago we had an iftar event with the President of Israel, with Ines we sat together on one table, Jews, Arabs, and Christians. The event was attended by the Ambassadors of Egypt, Jordan, Arab Emirates, myself as the Ambassador of North Macedonia, and Ines Demiri, all in the same table. We were greeted by our President in an Arab village for the iftar dinner.

T7: Do Arabs take part or have a role in the institutional life of Israel? DO they have MPs in Knesset and do they have ministers in your Government?

Dan Oryan: Let us talk about the Parliament. Today there are 15 Israeli MPs, not only elected to the Parliament, but they also entered the Parliament. There are members in committees. Currently there is no Arab minister in our government. We had in the past, and this might happen in the next government. As you know we are discussing creation of the government. But all sides, right and left, have spoken the Arab parties looking for possibilities to either they support them from outside or be part of the Government. And this was done by both right and left. This is something new, which has not happened before, and this is one of the reasons why so many people are disappointed now that the Israeli Arabs took part in some of those violent demonstrations over the last three days, especially very, very hard scenes that we saw yesterday. I am talking about those Arabs inside Israel, really, really upsetting scenes and there were condemnations from both right and left and also from high officials of the Arab side, and I really hope that we will succeed in calming down the situation. But again, we are not dealing with the main issue, the main issue if you ask me, is a terrorist organization, which is shooting thousands of rockets at Israel, but it is targeting the civilian population, which is already a serious breach of international law. When Israel attacks Gaza, we are trying to target those who create the bombs and missiles, their factories, the teams who are launching them and heads who are planning and organizing. Of course there is collateral damage and many people are being affected in this process, but we are not targeting civilians. Israel has the capacities to flatten Gaza, but we are not doing that, we are not interested in doing that. We want to live in peace and harmony as much as we can. 

T7: Mr. Ambassador, still we and the world is seeing photos of dead children and women in Gaza. Is it possible for a democratic country like Israel – most people say the only democratic country in the Middle East – to make a distinction between terrorist groups, such as Hamas, and civilians, who most of the times are used as a human shield against the rockets which are coming from Israel?

Dan Oryan: You are right, and this is a very difficult question. What a democratic country should do, what we should do, when facing such a situation, when missiles are lunched from civilian locations, from cities, next to hospitals, and mosques? They shoot from all these places. What are we going to do, we do not retaliate and you do not try to stop them? I am sure that only 200 missiles would fall in Pristina, the reaction would eb very clear. I am sure you would not wait long to attack back those who attacked you. They are hiding behind civilian population. Israel is doing such efforts that I do not know any army is doing. We have the system when we are planning to attack certain places, when we inform sent messages to people in their houses to come out because we know that there are activists there.

T7: In what manner you send the messages, through media?

Dan Oryan: No, no, of course not. We send directly to their cell phones, through people inside the building we know are there. When the big center of the Hamas was put down, the guy at the entrance got the information to tell the people who  are not terrorist to come out and we have the system called “Touch on the roof” which is basically telling them that the attack is about to happen. This is one of the options, and of course this is less effective this way, because this enables some of terrorists to run away, but see wat terrible ways they chose to operate. They go into civilian neighborhoods, they go underground, so when we decide to attack the center of that organization people will be hurt. But you cannot blame us for this. Of course, it happens because of our attacks, but as I said, if they stop the fire, if they stop their attacks, there is no interest for Israel to hurt anybody.

T7: People are saying, and media are reporting that millions of civilians in Gaza are living in miserable conditions. On one hand, they have Hamas, whose reputation reportedly has been affected in Gaza, because since the took the power there nothing has been done and there is a high-level corruption, but they are also living in ghetto. What is your role there? They do not have freedom of movement and lack access to the outside world. Is there any way to help them to get out of that situation? 

Dan Oryan: We would love to help them to get out of this situation. You are a bit exaggerating. We do not use the term “ghetto.” This term was used in other periods, and I would not use such a language, but certainly Hamas is bringing population there to a terrible situation. Just take the cost of all the fireworks and missiles that are launched towards the Israel – 1,500 missiles, and all the people working around it. A lot of the money came from the European countries, from the United States, and other countries aimed at helping the Palestinians, but they use the money for other things. They use the money to dig tunnels, to create missiles, and of course, when you invest your money there, of course you cannot invest in the education and welfare. But to be honest, this is only part of the “picture”, because the second part – you said that there are no possibilities of them going out – first of all, there is a passage to Egypt. As you know, the Gaza Strip, has alco connection to Egypt, there is a possibility to pass there, if the Egyptian decide to open it.

T7: So they can travel to Egypt, right?

Dan Oryan: Egypt understands that we are talking about a reign of terrorists, therefore they are not allowing it. Not just Israel, Egypt is not allowing most of the time. Israel is allowing some people to come and work here. Now is war, of course nothing is allowed to pass, except for the humanitarian aid. But last year, during coronavirus pandemic, almost all products they had were from Israel, where do you think they got from? So, this is only part of it. I am volunteering in a hospital in Jerusalem, and I see how many kids come to the hospital of Jerusalem to get the treatment from Israeli doctors, Jews and Arabs. They are Palestinians, and Palestinians from Gaza. We are treating them. Potential for cooperation is so wide and it is so sad seeing them being taken by those terrorists and are not allowed to improve their lives. Israel is always offering cooperation for economic partnership to Gaza, they say ‘No, we are not interested.”

T7: Most of the Palestinian Arabs live in the West Bank, and they have been silent. There was protests, but not launching missiles towards Israel. What is the distinction between them? Why on one side we have Arab Palestinians who are more or less clam, and on the other side, in Gaza, we see violent acts towards Israel?

Dan Oryan: I would be careful with giving this specification. In the West Bank it is not quiet, there are terrorist acts also, but there is a military cooperation, cooperation in the field of security between Israel and Palestinian Authority, at least it was until few days ago. To be honest there are a lot of incidents, which are prevented, because Israel is there. We have more intelligence and more information of what is happening in the West Bank, and every time we know that something bad is going to happen, we can stop it. The second thing is better economic situation and when people know what they re going to lose and if you know that you are going to take part in some kind of terror attack, you will lose your house or you will pay it in other ways, or people will not come to your place to eat there. All these are part of that equation. So, the West Bank is better, but not much better. They do not launch missiles, because Israel is around with the security surroundings, and Israelis and Palestinians live there one next to the other. We left Gaza after international community asked us to leave. We left 20 settlements there, more or less, just to be in line with the international demands and to get a peace agreement and this is what we got.

T7: A few months ago, Israel and Kosovo established diplomatic relations and Kosovo became the first majority Muslim country to open its Embassy in Jerusalem. First of all how our people there, are they safe in Jerusalem?

Dan Oryan: Your people in Jerusalem are totally safe. I just met yesterday with Ines Demiri, the Head of the Embassy, we meet quite often, we go to meetings together, she comes to the ministry, we were at the iftar dinner together. There are a lot of activities which are planned and have already commenced. Of course, recent events have stopped us a little bit. I would like to say something before elaborating your last question. People tell me: ‘A but you know, many more people have been wounded or killed in Gaza’ And it is clear, because Israel, an innovative country, with very good armament and possibilities, has also the “Iron Dome.” People do not talk about it, but if they shot on us 1,000 rockets – just until yesterday over 1,500 were launched – then more or less 350 fell on their territory. Some of children that you saw dead are from their rockets. And of course, to the Israeli side, the human life is number one in our list, we have the “Iron Dome” (ground-to-air defense system) Israeli’s specialty, which means that when they shoot at us and we know it is about to fall in a problematic place we can tackle it on the air. I think that about 75 to 80 percent of the launched rockets towards Israel have been neutralized midair by this Israeli instrument and therefore we have less victims, however terrible things happen. This morning, a six-year-old boy was killed by one of those rockets, and he was in a safe room.

T7: The missiles that Hamas is launching towards Israel, where do they get these weapons and missiles?

Dan Oryan: This is part of the problem, and we have called the international community to assist, but unfortunately not enough efforts have been made. No doubt, the information and know-how come from Iran and their supporters, Hezbollah the proxy of Iran and Iran itself, they are all one chain of terror. What we are trying to do is to stop them sending missiles and know how towards Gaza Strip but also Lebanon. We have similar problem with Hezbollah in Lebanon, but the difference today is that Hezbollah in Lebanon today is deterred. They are not taking part in the conflict, because they know what the cost will be. They know that if they take part, they will pay dearly. Unfortunately, until Hamas in Gaza does not feel that it is losing all its assets, they will not stop, but I do hope that it will stop soon.

T7: It is also very problematic and confusing in Kosovo hearing Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, using a very aggressive rhetoric towards Israel considering that economic ties between Israel and Turkey are very close. How is that even possible?  

Dan Oryan: Yes, this is certainly one of the “wonders” of the Middle East. We have wonderful economic relations with Turkey. We have great disagreements. You asked before about (Hamas militia) where did they get their weapons. The Hamas teams, until recently were in Turkey. They stayed there and we have asked many times to take them out of that country and this another thing that did not happen. This is complicated, but at the same time every Arab and Muslim country that is ready to do business with Israel, we are doing. Unfortunately, Erdogan, quite a few times, let me just remind you, he has also made some declarations about Kosovo in the past, saying that Kosovo is Turkey, Turkey is Kosovo, and you did not like that either. And now, when you open the Embassy in Jerusalem, let me remind you, there were threats coming from Turkey. So, I hope that Turkey, as well as other countries will stop threats and commit to economic cooperation.

T7: Kosovo Foreign Minister, Donika Gervalla-Szhwartz, made it very clear that our foreign policy will be in compliance with that of the United States of America, when it comes to Kosovo’s Embassy in Jerusalem. But from the Israeli point of view, how the relations between the two countries should look like, Kosovo is a Muslim majority country, but it has non-Arab Muslims, non-Turkish, a state with a Muslim majority in Europe. How do you see the relations between the two states?

Dan Oryan: I would like to say that Israel established diplomatic relations not long time ago and I also heard my friend, Yahel Vilan (Israeli Ambassador to Serbia), speaking about this topic in Belgrade. He was talking about American pressure. I think we should put it in a bit of a different category. No doubt that Americans over the last 12 years have been asking us and telling us that recognizing Kosovo and establishing diplomatic relations is a right thing and this only happened now, and the reason why it happened now is because what Israel is offered now. It was a big package, a very big package, which includes not only Embassy of Kosovo in Jerusalem, but also future embassy of Serbia in Jerusalem and other things which are very important to Israel, including issues related to Hezbollah. And these are things which are written in  the agreement with the United States, and this is very important. We were offered, let’s call it a package that we cannot refuse. And for a long time, many people in Israel wanted to have diplomatic relations with Kosovo, it is not a secret, and I am happy that it happened, and I am happy that we are now in a stage where we can really build relations. When you established the relations, you did a wonderful think. As you promised you opened an embassy in Jerusalem, just like the Americans did. And you have a wonderful Head of Mission. No doubt, at these moments, when Israel is under attack, we expect our close friends – and we see Kosovo as a close friend – to clearly declare that attacks on civilians, that missiles from Gaza towards Israel, towards civilians, are unacceptable – not only illegal, but also unacceptable, and you demand that this should stop. This is something what Americans did. Yesterday, Benjamin Netanyahu talked with the US President Joe Biden and this is exactly what he said. He told journalists that it is unacceptable the shooting from Gaza must stop immediately and basically this is what we expect from our close friends. And I can tell you that our friends in the region are going in this direction. A statement of the Albanian Foreign Ministry is clearly stating exactly that.  

T7: We had an agreement signed in September last year in Washington. With Kosovo Prime Minister Avdullah Hoti and Serbian president Aleksandar Vucic pledging to open embassies in Jerusalem. Is Belgrade fulfilling this promise, is Belgrade is going to open an embassy in Jerusalem?

Dan Oryan: I hope that they will fulfill all the promises, just like you did and just like we do. We fulfilled the part of the agreement with Israel, when it is stated that Israel will recognize, establish diplomatic relations with Kosovo and there will be opening of the embassy in Jerusalem. All that already happened. On the other part from the part of Serbia this has not happened yet, but we expect Vucic, we expect Serbia to do that, and actually I think that it is also good for the future relations with all the countries of the Balkans, because I think that a strong Israel and strong embassies in Jerusalem, are very positive. We are negotiating with Serbs. They might start initially by opening an economic center first, and hopefully next stage will be an embassy. This is what we expect, we expect our friends to assist us to defend ourselves, to defend the Western world and also, we expect from these states to do the things they have promised. Until now it did not happen, but again we do really hope that it will happen soon. We have wonderful cooperation with Belgrade in many fields, starting from innovation to tourism. We hope that there will have a lot of tourists coming to Kosovo and I have already had a few meetings jointly with Ines Demiri, with leading figures both in  economy and tourism, exploring possibilities of establishing direct flights in the future and there are so many things that we can do together and I really hope that we will have a chance to do it.

T7: Balkan itself is kind of a Middle East of Europe, when it comes to complications that we have with each-other and differences on various problems. What we have seen in the last ten years, it is a Palestinian ambassador in Belgrade, who has a very aggressive approach towards Kosovo. What is the problem of Palestinians with Kosovo? Why they are so aggressive in denying the Independence of Kosovo? Do you have any idea?

Dan Oryan: I have many ideas, but I think this is a kind of question that you should relate to the ambassador himself, if he is ready to talk to a Kosovo television. I can tell you that Palestinians… we have an expression that was made by one of the famous Foreign Ministers of Israel: “Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.” SO I suppose in this case this is another right moment for their los. Again, I would expect them to do that (recognition of Kosovo) in a very early stage, maybe even before Israel. I think this is in the interest of Palestinians, but again I am not here to defend interests of Palestinians. I am here to defend the interest of Israel and interest of Israel is to have peace in Balkans, as well as in Israel and in the Middle East. Every country which is ready for peace and interested to cooperation will have not just our blessing, but our hand as well. We are extending again our hand to the Palestinians calling them to negotiate and we really hope that in your dialogue with Belgrade there will be moving forward. A lot depends from the people in Pristina and Belgrade and their leaders. And I really hope that this will happen, because I think that it will be good also for this triangle with Israel. I think that interests of three sides are very close and we can gain a lot from coming closer. /GazetaExpress/